Gay culture?

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oh, dear. there is so much just...well..wrong about your comments, so much so that i don't even know where to begin. part of me wants to ask if you are ten years old or "just" naive; and i'm not being mean when i say that. really. but then, so many youth today are so with-it, your collective gender-stuff is so much more fluid than ours. where are you then? is it geographical? oh, jaysus, you're in my beloved ireland. ah, where "everybody goes to the same bars. we don't see a need to separate bars." which, in theory, is truly a lovely thought. yet full inclusion and welcome does not and cannot happen within a straight world. if people aren't safe they cannot be authentic. there is too much violence against GLBT folk, too much homophobia, too many hate crimes, too much heterosexism.

let me try to explain it this way. i'm way liberal, open-minded, non-bigoted, inclusive, radical, and welcoming. yet i'm a racist. by virtue (or lack thereof actually) of being Anglo/white and being raised in the US. my skin stuff gives me more rights and privileges. if i were male, i'd be truly racist and privileged. if i were white, male, and hetero, any door would open to me. if i happened to be white, male, straight, and affluent, i could be george bush...or a dead kennedy (the good guys, JFK or RFK not the group). even if my father raised me "that Irish aren't white" because of the history of the oppression of the irish, i'm still a racist because i grew up white in MS. if i'd been white in NY or CA, i'd still be racist. even though i am not a bigot and believe all in equal as children of The Divine One.

hetero is the dominant culture.

sometimes open and welcoming and accepting folk get into our own weird stuff about those marginalised. we think we're so open and cool that "they" are just whining or being tedious. we think "they just need to get over it and get on with it." believe me, "they" would like to; "they" would give anything to be allowed this process. it has not happened yet. i pray that day will come when the Reign of God breaks through in such a way that this process can begin. or to use another Metaphor, i pray that people's minds and hearts and souls can, one day, be so open that we all can stand together, equal, in a world that does not "diss" anyone, where violence is just a word we vaguely remember hearing about.

but then, violence is more than someone picking up a gun and blowing away the person next to them on the street. violence is racism, sexism, heterosexism. violence is institutional...very very institutional. violence happens every day against the earth. when someone goes hungry that is an act of violence. when there is no health care available for children, women, and (even) men, that is an act of violence. when people live in dangerous homes, unsafe and built with toxic chemicals, that is violence. petrochemicals are violence. us immigration policies are violence. the need for mexico's (and any other latin american culture's) people to feel they must get out of their own country and to risk it all to get to the US is an act of violence. the ugly, dirty history of colonialism and imperialism that causes the people of latin america to risk their lives coming to the US is an act of violence. a gay joke is an act of violence.


there is a GLBT culture just as there is a GLBT spirituality. it's far beyond sex between and among. there are movies, film, artists, music, language, clothing, etc that are a part of gay culture. that doesn't mean that GLBT folk live in a pure ghetto of just gay everything. you are thinking quite literally in a way.

our generation of stonewall, harvey milk, legalising gay marriage, PRIDE, etc is still rather fixated on categories--whether one is gay,straight, bi, trans. when it's all a lot more complicated than that. and complex. and fluid.

thank you, though, for spending time here trying to sort it all out. at least that is what i "hear" you are trying to do. i don't take your thoughts as the end-all, be-all, final thought you'll have about gay-stuff. i hear that, to you, it's a work in progress. keep on thinking and feeling and questioning and writing and talking and listening...

i go off when i hear CofE folk say that GLBT folk in the US Episco Church are making such a big deal about the politics of gay rights, gay marriage, and ordiniation. hell-oh! just because england, at some level, has a totally different way of looking at cross-dressing than we do in the US does not mean everyone is equal and all is "fair game to you." maybe if rowan wasn't such a jerk--we celts had such hope for him once upon a time. but within the CofE people are still in a bigger swoon about the ordination of women than the US--i can't even begin to think of all those tedious us episcos who are going over to africa for their bishops. when that dear and blessed desmond tutu is writing and preaching and living his good hearted theology of welcome and akinola still seems to reign in the mother land! (assinola i call him)

yes, it's true. i am intolerant of intolerance. but i'm not violent about it.

so thank you. keep on working on it all.

en la lucha
oonagh+

The Rev'd. oonagh Ryan-King
The Inclusive Celtic Episcopal Church
I'm certainly not naive, I'm certainly not ten. I feel sorry that you feel the way that you do in your comment- that gay people can never be safe around straight people - and I disagree most wholeheartedly.

Of course there's still violence against LGBT people, but the root of a lot of that violence is ignorance, prejudice and religion.

"keep working on it" - how wonderfully condescending of you.

I'm not denying that there's a shared history but what I've been arguing is that all facets of LGB culture can be boiled down to the basics of sexual attraction to the same sex, and outsider status in mainstream society. The T community is slightly different and separate.

I'm not going to delve right back into this conversation as I've already had a really indept conversation on another website, which is where I'm going to direct you to now. http://www.atforumz.com/showthread.php?t=303633

This is the thread that prompted my post, and subsequent posts on the topic were posted in the thread. It's a very interesting discussion.
the wonderful thing about the internet is that we can visit people everywhere. the downside is that we lose nuance of voice and facial expression. as a jungian i would have to say you are projecting about condescending, etc.

i look forward to really and deeply processing your in depth conversation @ another site

i never said that GLBT folk are NEVER safe around hetero folk.

you don't have to answer this, but are you hetero? i am not; i am bi. i can't say that i am purely hetero for i've had sex and relationships with womyn; i'm certainly a Social Lesbian; and much of my fantasy life as well as my sexual stimulation comes from women and woman-stuff. i would say that is more normal hetero but the world doesn't really think that way. i also believe most of us are much more bi than we ever give credit. for the most part, i think it's still the done thing to believe what the person from that group tells us--sure, we have to discern who and what and how. it's like i can say "queer" and it's not weird; yes, there are some hetero folk who can say "queer" but they've been granted special dispensation. it's like a white person from MS saying the n-word; in that case all of the world should show up in that person's yard the next day. if an african-american in east oakland or NYC or wherever says the n-word, then it's okay.

i can see that you might think i was dissin' you. but i wasn't. we don't know one another so there is much we miss.

i would say the root of violence is those things you said but i would list fear as the number one cause of the violence. and something about power and economiics. because it's ALWAYS about power/economics. siempre.

i can assure you; it's a lot more than "sexual attraction." what about those faghags who spent eons trying to be lesbian? or hoping they were really tran? and who failed because they really are hetero and it just breaks their hearts that they are.

we ALL always keep working at it; we are works in progress. i hope in ten years time i still don't believe what i do today. that is not saying i'm going to move right; god no. but we are all evolving as william hurt reminded us in "the big chill"...i look at papers i wrote in seminary just two years ago and i roll my eyes. to cheer you--or anyone else--on to "keep on keepin on" is a good ting. promise

yes, i'm a gay priest in a gay church. i'm a leather and latex wearing person and priest. i'm kinky, into BDSM, and married to a heterosexual episcopal priest. i swear like mad; fuck as verb/adverb/adjective is my favorite word; i drink; i smoke cigars and medicinal mj (at least i did when i lived in the US and could get it. i also support the legalisation of marijuana); i drink. i've tried other substances; ghb was a godsend for my M.E. but of course the feckin FDA took it off the market and turned it into xyrem at a gazilion dollars. i'm sex positive and i support the legalisation of sex workers and i don't demonise bodies/sex/sexuality. i've spent a a lot of time in jail and prison for civil disobedience.

you're really intelligent and i would ask you to rethink the "boiling down...to sexual attraction" stuff. it really is a whole lot more complicated than that. honest.

you are right about religion, for too long. don't i know!!! i receive all sorts of threats for the work i do. sad, isn't it? and the whole religious so-called right is really terrifying. as terrifying as the US these days but don't get me started on that or i'lll be here a month and the Powers That Be will show up on our doorstep again! i feel like walking naked to airports; i always get searched---and long before 9-11 too. good grief.

too bad we can't sit down over a drink and a meal and talk.

oonagh+

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